中国驻英大使刘晓明舌战BBC

On 3 September 2015, H.E. Ambassador Liu Xiaoming was invited to a live interview with BBC Newsnight hosted by Robert Peston. Ambassador Liu elaborated on the significance of the Commemoration of the 70th Anniversary of the Victory of the Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression and the World Anti-Fascist War, and answered questions about China's military expenditure and China's economy. The full text is as follows:
2015年9月3日，驻英国大使刘晓明在英国BBC强档品牌节目“新闻之夜”（Newsnight）演播室接受该节目主持人罗伯特·佩斯顿（Robert Peston）直播专访，谈中国人民抗日战争暨世界反法西斯战争胜利70周年纪念活动的重要意义，并回答有关中国军费和经济形势等提问。专访实录如下：

Peston: Joining me now is the Chinese Ambassador to the UK, Liu Xiaoming. Ambassador, I think of China as this fast modernizing country, enriching country. But we've seen this extraordinary military display today, which takes some of us back to the era of Mao. Is this China again sending a sort of message to the world that, you know, you are fierce and dangerous?
佩斯顿：我们今天邀请到中国驻英国大使刘晓明先生。大使先生，当我想到中国时，我想到一个国土辽阔、正迈向现代化、逐渐富裕的国家。但我们今天看到的令人震撼的阅兵场面，会使有些人觉得中国又回到了“毛泽东时代”。中国是否再次向世界发出这样一个信息，即中国是一个危险且令人生畏的国家？

Ambassador Liu: I think the impression you had is not correct. In fact, the message is loud and clear, that is peace. Peace was hard won and peace should be cherished and maintained. And China will make its due contribution to maintaining world peace and regional stability. You know, in his ten minutes of speech, President Xi Jinping used the word "peace" for 13 times. So, that's the message.
刘大使：我认为你得出的印象是错误的。事实上，中国发出的信息响亮而明确，这就是和平。和平来之不易，和平应当珍爱，和平应当维护。中国将为维护世界和平和地区稳定做出自己的贡献。习近平主席在10多分钟的讲话中，13次提到和平。这就是中国发出的信息。

Peston: So these gunboats that sailed off the coast of Alaska when President Obama was there today, was that just a sort of accident?
佩斯顿：今天，美国总统奥巴马访问阿拉斯加时，几艘中国军舰正好出现在靠近阿拉斯加的公海上。这是巧合吗？

Ambassador Liu: I think we are talking about this commemoration first, then I'll come back to this naval fleet. When I say peace was hard won, not many people, especially in the West realize how much sacrifice China has made for the war against Japanese aggression. In fact the war, the Second World War, started in China, started earliest, lasted longest, and China suffered the largest casualties. We pay the price of 35 million casualties, and that is the most among all the sufferings of the world in Second World War. It's about one third of the casualties of the world. And so Chinese people see this 70th anniversary as a big occasion for us to celebrate the victory, to honor the fallen soldiers who, you know, sacrificed for their motherland.
刘大使：我想，我们还是先谈谈今天的纪念大会，之后我再回到你的问题。我说和平来之不易，在西方很少人了解中国人民为抗日战争做出了多大牺牲。事实上，第二次世界大战发端于中国。中国人民抗日战争开始时间最早、持续时间最长、伤亡人数最多。中国军民伤亡3500万人，占世界各国伤亡总人数约三分之一，是二战中伤亡人数最多的国家。因此中国人民把抗日战争和世界反法西斯战争胜利70周年视为一个庆祝胜利、缅怀先烈的重要时刻

Peston: But this peace require defend spending to go up this extraordinary way, 12% last year, 10% this year? Enormous money you're spending.
佩斯顿：但和平需要中国军费保持如此之快的速度增长吗？去年12%，今年10%。这是一笔巨大的开支。

Ambassador Liu: You have to remember that China is a large country. China, you know, in term of territory, it's about 40 times of UK. In terms of population, it's about 20 times. Yet in terms of per capita military expenditure, China is only 1/22 of the United States, and 1/9 of Britain. And also in terms of proportion of expenditure with regard to GDP, the growth is decreasing. This year, in fact, is the lowest of the past 5 years. And you know China is, I said, is a large country to defend, the Chinese military has a lot of commitments.
刘大使：请不要忘记，中国是一个大国。中国的面积是英国的40倍，人口是英国的20倍。而中国的人均军费仅是美国的二十二分之一，是英国的九分之一。而且中国军费占GDP的比例逐年下降，今年是过去5年来最低的。正如你所知，中国有辽阔的国土需要保卫，此外，中国军队承担着多重任务。

Peston: I think it's the share of the GDP that's actually gone up a bit, given the rapid growth of the economy. But you talk about obviously your desire of stability. What do you think when you hear the leading Republican Presidential Candidate Donald Trump talking about how he thinks that Chinese want Americans to starve?
佩斯顿：考虑到当前中国经济的增长速度，我认为中国军费占GDP的比例事实上略有上升。你谈到中国要维护稳定，美国共和党总统参选人特朗普说中国人想要饿死美国人，你对此有何评论？

Ambassador Liu: I don't think it represents the majority view in United States. You know, you always have some voice, but I don't think….
刘大使：我不认为他此番言论代表美国主流民意。

Peston: But if he became president, how serious would that be?
佩斯顿：但如果特朗普当选美国总统呢？你认为这种可能性有多大？

Ambassador Liu: I think it's a very hypothetic question. I do not know how you would answer that. But I certainly will not answer this hypothetic question. But I can assure you that we want to have good relations with United States. And you mention in your film before this interview, that China wants to challenge the dominance of the United States, and even want to challenge the US leadership. That is not our position, not our intention at all. I think in China, we have a lot of challenges to deal with in our domestic development, and we have no intention to challenge US dominance. And we believe that the US and China should be good partners in the Asia-Pacific region.
刘大使：这是一个假设性的问题，我不知道你会怎么回答假设性的问题，我是不会回答假设性问题的。但我可以肯定地告诉你，中国愿意和美国建立良好关系。在访谈开始前播出的节目中，你说中国想挑战美国的主导地位，甚至挑战美国的世界领导地位。这不是中国的立场，我们无意这么做。中国在实现自身发展方面已经面临足够多的挑战，我们无意去挑战美国的主导地位。我认为中美在亚太地区应该成为好伙伴。

Peston: Now is this display of military strength a distraction from the slowdown in the Chinese economy which many economists think is quite serious?
佩斯顿：中国举行阅兵式是为了展示军力，转移人们对中国经济下滑的注意力吗？很多经济学家认为中国经济面临严重问题。

Ambassador Liu: I think China's economic difficulties have been exaggerated by Western observers. I think we have some difficulty, challenges, that's for sure. But they are the natural outcome…
刘大使：我认为西方观察家们夸大了中国经济面临的困难。中国经济确实面临一些困难，这在中国发展过程中是正常的。

Peston: Five trillion dollars lost of the Chinese stock market. Is that trivial?
佩斯顿：中国股市市值蒸发了5万亿美元，这是小数目吗？

Ambassador Liu: No. I think stock market has its own rule of game. You know goes up and downs, like in the United States, in stock market. We have to focus on the big picture of China. I think the basics and fundamentals of the Chinese economy still good and sound. We achieved 7% increase for the first half of this year. That 7% increase is about the same size of the total GDP of this 20th largest economy of Switzerland.

刘大使：我认为股市有其自身的运行规律。股市有起有伏，美国股市也是如此。我们要看中国经济的全貌。中国经济的基本面是好的。今年上半年中国GDP增长了7%，增量相当于世界第20大经济体瑞士的GDP总量。

Peston: And very briefly, your president has said he wants modernized economy and see markets liberalized. A really important part of free markets is that people should be free to say whatever they like about those markets. Now journalists, hedge firm manager have been arrested for allegedly scaremongering about the stock market. To us in the west, that is very shocking.
佩斯顿：习近平主席表示希望使中国经济更加现代化，使市场更加自由化。自由市场的一个重要组成部分就是，人民应该能自由地表达对市场的意见。而在中国，一些记者和基金经理因为涉嫌制造股市恐慌被逮捕。这对西方人来说是十分令人震惊的。

Ambassador Liu: I think Chinese people enjoy, you know, freedom of speech. The cases you have mentioned are those who involve in violation of law. You know, China is a country ruled by law. And…
刘大使：中国人民享有言论自由。在你所说的案件中，那些人违反了法律。中国是法治国家。

Peston: But I said much scarier thing about British markets than they said about Chinese market. Do you think the British Government should arrest me?
佩斯顿：我说过关于英国市场很可怕的话，比那些人说中国市场的话要可怕得多。你觉得英国政府应该逮捕我吗？

Ambassador Liu: No. It's not only about the mad comment about the market. It's also about, you know, making…sending the rumors, causing disturbances in the market. And you know, China and Britain are run by different rules of game. And maybe in some of the cases in Britain, it's not a violation of criminal law. But in China, you know, it constitutes a wrong-doings. So they have to be held accountable for their wrong-doings.
刘大使：那些人不仅仅是发表评论。他们制造谣言，引起市场恐慌。中英两国国情不同，法律制度也不尽相同。一些行为在英国可能不违法，而在中国则不同，如果违法，就要受到惩处。

Peston: Ambassador, many thanks!
佩斯顿：非常感谢，大使先生。

Ambassador Liu: Thank you for having me.
刘大使：谢谢。

Newsnight is a popular BBC 2 current affairs programme which specialises in indepth analysis and robust cross-examination of senior politicians. Robert Peston has been the Economics Editor for BBC since 2013.
“新闻之夜”是英国BBC电视二台知名时政类访谈节目，以深度分析和激烈辩论著称，在英政界和知识界影响较大，全球受众广泛，英国及世界政要和精英经常接受该节目专访。主持人佩斯顿2013年任BBC经济主编至今。

（来源：外交部网站，编辑：Helen）